-----Original Message-----
From:
John S. Quarterman [mailto:jsq@matrix.net]
Sent: 03 July 2000 20:31
To: quarterman@matrix.net
Subject: Re: The Quatremains of Oxfordshire
org
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>@There are English Quatremaines on this list, and
perhaps some of them
>will add more to this
discussion.@
>
>Yes me
! - Victoria
Hi Victoria,
>I don't know any thing about the American history but I
have read Carter's
>'The Quartremaynes of
Oxfordshire'. There is only one green worn reference
>book in the county library in Oxford, England.
Doubtless the very same copy I looked at a few years ago in
that same place.
> I have a copy of part but
>copyright laws mean that one can only legally copy one chapter or
5% of the
>original.
Is this really true? The book was published in
1936. Is the copyright
on it still in force
after 64 years?
ACCORDING TO THE LIBRARIAN AT OXFORD LIBRARY, BUT I COULD
DOUBLE CHECK WITH OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS.
> I could scan in 5% and maybe we could put it on
to the web page?
>The alternative is to try and
get permission from the Author if he is alive
>to
put it all on the web page?
Mr. Carter was apparently not a young man when he wrote the
book.
If he was as young as 30, he would be 94 years
old now. Many of
us on this list know at least
one relative who is that old, so
it is conceivable
that he is still alive. However, I suspect he
was quite a bit older than 30 when he wrote the book.
The only William F. Carter listed in the U.S. Library of
Congress
as writing books about English history is a
William Fowler Carter
born in 1856. If that's
him, he would be 144 years old now.
I WOULD SUGGEST THAT THIS IS THE SAME PERSON AS THE FIRST
LINE OF CARTERS BOOK READS " THIS ANCIENT FAMILY (QUATREMAINS) FIRST
ATTRACTED MY ATTENTION MORE THAN FIFTY YEARS AGO, WHEN I WAS COLLECTING
INFORMATION ABOUT THE FOWLERS"
THEREFORE I WOULD SUGGEST THAT IN 1936 CARTER MUST HAVE BEEN
AT LEAST SIXTY SIX ?
And indeed, according to the Oxford U. Library catalog,
that's our author.
That catalog says the spelling of
the title is:
The Quatremains of
Oxfordshire
The Bodleian has two copies and Magdalen
College has two copies.
I DIDN'T KNOW THIS, BUT FOR POTENTIAL VISITORS TO OXFORD IT
IS IMPORTANT THAT THEY KNOW A COPY IS IN THE OXFORD COUNTY LIBRARY,
WESTGATE, OXFORD, AS THE BODLEIAN LIBRARY AND MAGDALEN COLLEGE WILL BE
VIEWING BY APPOINTMENT ONLY.
>John is it you who maintains the web page?
Yes.
> I could scan in some and send it to you as an
attachment? What do you think?
Er, typing it in would be even better.
IS THERE NOT SOME WAY I CAN SCAN COPY AND PASTE THE
INFORMATION ON TO THE PAGE AS THIS WILL SAVE TIME?
> Carter also translates the Latin
>around the tombs in Thame and I previously promised I would let
you have
>this info so I will look that up
too.
Good idea.
I LOOKED IT UP LAST NIGHT AND CARTERS INTERPRETATION IS AS
FOLLOWS:
" O certeyn deth that now hast overthrow
Richard Quatremayns Squyer and Sibil his wife that lie here now full
(low)
That with rial Princes of Counsel was true and
wise famed
To Richard Duke of York and aftur with
his sone Kyng Edward the iiiith named
That foundid
in the Churche of Thame a chauntrie vi pore men and a fraternytie
In the worship of Seynt Cristfere to be relevid in
perpetuyte
(They)that of her almys for thr Soulis a
paternoster and (ave) devoutly wul Say
of holy
fadurs is grauntid they perdon of dayes forty alwey.
Wiche Richard and Sibil oute of this Worlde passid in the yere of
oure Lord A MCCCCLX
Uppon their Soules Ihu haue
mercy. Amen"
Carter notes that 'Her almys' means 'their alms' ie their
charity'.
FURTHER IN ST MARYS CHURCH GUIDE IT STATES THAT THE OTHER
TOMB STONE (IE THAT OF THOMAS QUATERMAIN DIED 1342 AND HIS WIFE KATHERINE,
THEIR SON THOMAS DIED 1396 AND HIS WIFE JOAN WAS FORMERLY KNOWN AS THE 'POOR
STONE' BECAUSE CHARITABLE GIFTS WERE PLACED ON IT BEFORE
DISTRIBUTION.
CARTER REFERS TO DR LEE S INTERPRETATION OF THE
WORDING ON THIS TOMB AS WHEN CARTER FOUND THAT MOST OF THE BRASS STRIP
SURROUNDING THE TOMB WHICH CONTAINED HAD ALMOST COMPLETELY BEEN TORN
AWAY.
CARTER QUOTES 'Dr Lee from Cottonian MS. Cleoptra C iii,
folio 3b '
as follows:
'Hic jacent Thomas Quatremayn de Notrh Westene (et)
Kath'r'na uxor eius quee fuit filia Roberti d'ni de Grey Rotherfeld' qui
obierunt vi die Junii Anno d'ni millesimo cccxlij. Similiterque hic jacent
Thomas filius precicti Thome Quatremayn et Johanna uxor eius qui quidem
Thomas obiit vi die Maii Millesimo ccclxxxxvi quorum animabus p'picietur
Deus. Amen.'
CARTER NOTES THAT OF THE SMALL PART REMAINING THAT THE WORD
'Militis' EXISTS AFTER 'Grey Rithirfeld.
>The other problem is that as the book was written so
long ago it is no
>longer in print by Oxford
University Press. so one cannot buy a copy.
And it's even impossible to find on the rare book market;
I've had inquiries
in at various places for more
than 20 years now.
I have another suggestion as well. How about if we
talk to Oxford U. Press
about doing a reprint?
Either through them, or with their cooperation but
through some other press?
I WILL ASK OUP ..HOW MANY COPIES DO YOU THINK WE WOULD
NEED?
>The first recorded Quarterman (or spelling variation
thereof) was Guilliame
>Quartremayne in Oxford in
1116. Remember that William the Conqueror, King
>William I of England came from Normandy in France in 1066 (Battle
of
>Hastings)
Yes, but the Quatremaines did not come with William the
Conqueror.
My Aunt Jane has tried following that
thread, and there are no
Quatremaines under any
obvious spelling in any of the lists
associated with
the Battle of Hastings or any events near that time.
As you say, the first Quarterman turns up more than a generation
later.
This of course doesn't completely preclude our ancestors
having come
over with William; surnames were not
common at that time, and they
might not have yet
adopted the surname.
However, many more Normans came to England from Normandy in
the
times of Henry I (1100-1135) and Henry II
(1154-1189). The Quatremains
could have been
among them.
YES INDEED BUT BECAUSE OF THIS LINK IT IS EXTREMELY LIKELY
THAT THE FIRST QUARTERMAN ANCESTOR TO LIVE IN ENGLAND DID COME FROM NORMANDY
AND DEFIANTLY IN THE PERIOD COMMENCING WITH THE DATE 1066.
I HAVEN'T HAD CHANCE TO RESEARCH THE BATTLE OF HASTINGS I
HAVE ONLY BEEN RESEARCHING THIS FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS AND WHEN YOU WORK FULL
TIME IT IS NOT EASY.
BUT ONE OBSERVATION I WOULD MAKE WHICH NOONE SEEMS TO HAVE
NOTED IS THAT THE OLD FASHIONED WAY OF WRITING A 'Q'WHEN COMBINED WITH A 'U'
IN SCRIPT LOOKS VERY MUCH LIKE A 'W'.
> The Norman's were brilliant as the majority could read
and write
>and they liked to list and record
information. Hence the Doomsday Book.
Indeed. Unfortunately, there are no Quatremaines in
the Domesday Book, either.
WE DEFIANTLY NEED TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THE FIRST RECORDED
QUARTERMAN.
> In
>modern French 'Quatre'
means 'four' and 'main' means 'hand'. I understand
>that the Norman's at that time wore chain mail (armour in the
form of small
>metal links or chains to protect
from swords in battle). Carter refers to
>the
Quarterman name as meaning 'four hands' or 'mail fisted'. I therefore
>understand that the four hands means two actual hands
and two gloves of
>chain mail over them, this
probably refers to the fact that Guilliames'
>father or relatives etc were well recognised for their heroic in
battle
That's one possibility.
>Quarterman is not the American version of Quartre mayne
but the Saxon
>interpretation (the Saxons lived
in England before the Norman's arrived in
>1066.)
Interesting. Was the Quarterman spelling ever actually
used by people
of that family in England?
YES BUT MY FAMILY ARE QUARTERMAN S AND WE HAVE NEVER MOVED
TO THE US AND ACCORDING TO THE OXFORD TELEPHONE DIRECTORY THE MAJORITY OF
QUARTERMAN S LIVING IN THE OXFORD AREA TODAY USE THIS SPELLING ALTHOUGH
THERE ARE QUITE A FEW QUARTERMAIN S.
ALTHOUGH I WOULD NOTE THAT MY GREAT GRANDFATHERS W.W.I
MEDALS HAVE QUARTERMAIN WRITTEN ON THEM!
I HAVE COPIED EXTRACTS OF CHURCH RECORDS FROM CIRCA 16/17C
WHICH WAS PRESUMABLY WHEN A CERTAIN QUARTERMAN FAMILY FIRST TOOK THAT BOAT
TO AMERICA. I WILL CHECK WHEN I GET HOME TONIGHT AS TO THE
SPELLING.
>The most famous quartermans discussed by Carter are
those buried in St Mary
>Church in Thame and who
built Rycote Chapel (English Heritage) These
>hob-nobbed with nobility
Yes, this is the Richard Quatremayne b. 1393 d. 1478 who was
a member
of Parliament for a long time. He's
the same one who was reputed by
some of his distant
relatives to have been the Duke of Gloster even
though, as we heard on this list a while back, he couldn't have
been.
> One was the fourth physician(doctor) to King
Edward
>of England and he was also a member of
parliament.
Um, I think you mean physician to Charles II, at least if
you're referring to
Dr. William Quatremain b. 1618
d. 1622 who was a patron of Magdalene College.
Or
maybe you're thinking of a different one.
AS YOU PROBABLY GUESSED I WAS BEING VAGUE AS I COULDN'T
QUITE REMEMBER. BUT I WILL REFER TO MY NOTES AND GET BACK TO YOU.
> These quartermans are
>likely to have had the same ancestors as all Quartermans'living
today but
>there are no direct decedents as the
first born hereditary line finished
>without an
heir.
Although even that line also has living descendants through
the
Littletons (some of them currently residing in
Australia) and the
Fowlers. I wouldn't be
surprised if Mr. Carter were one of them,
given his
middle name.
MR CARTER WAS INTERESTED IN THE QUARTERMAN FAMILY AS IT WAS
HIS WIFE'S MAIDEN NAME.
SIR RICHARD FOWLER WAS THE HEIR AND NEPHEW OF RICHARD
QUARTERMAN WHO IS BURIED IN THAME
CHURCH
CARTER NOTES THAT FOR TWO OR THREE GENERATIONS IN 15 C THE
FOWLERS WERE CONNECTED WITH THE QUATREMAINS FAMILY BY INTERMARRIAGE AND
DECENT.
And some of the more prominent Massachusetts ancestors of
the Midway group
were Fowlers. There is a gap
of more than 100 years between them and
the only
Quatremayne Fowlers that I know of, so I can only speculate that
they might be related.
JOHN DO YOU KNOW WHICH OF YOUR QUARTERMAN ANCESTORS WERE
BORN IN ENGLAND (WHERE) AND MOVED TO AMERICA (WHEN)?
John
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