Re: The Quatremains of Oxfordshire

["John S. Quarterman" <jsq@matrix.net>]

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>>>@There are English Quatremaines on this list, and perhaps some of them
>>>will add more to this discussion.@
>>>
>>>Yes me ! - Victoria
>>
>>Hi Victoria,
>>
>>>I don't know any thing about the American history but I have read Carter's
>>>'The Quartremaynes of Oxfordshire'. There is only one green worn reference
>>>book in the county library in Oxford, England.
>>
>>Doubtless the very same copy I looked at a few years ago in that same place.
>>
>>> I have a copy of part but
>>>copyright laws mean that one can only legally copy one chapter or 5% of the
>>>original.
>>
>>Is this really true?  The book was published in 1936.  Is the copyright
>>on it still in force after 64 years?
>
>According to the librarian at Oxford library, but I could double check with
>Oxford University Press.

Yes, please.

(I have taken the liberty of converting your response into mixed case
and putting it in standard quotation format so I could read it.)

>>>  I could scan in 5% and maybe we could put it on to the web page?
>>>The alternative is to try and get permission from the Author if he is alive
>>>to put it all  on the web page?
>>
>>Mr. Carter was apparently not a young man when he wrote the book.
>>If he was as young as 30, he would be 94 years old now.  Many of
>>us on this list know at least one relative who is that old, so
>>it is conceivable that he is still alive.  However, I suspect he
>>was quite a bit older than 30 when he wrote the book.
>>
>>The only William F. Carter listed in the U.S. Library of Congress
>>as writing books about English history is a William Fowler Carter
>>born in 1856.  If that's him, he would be 144 years old now.
>>
>I would suggest that this is the same person as the first line of Carters
>book reads " This ancient family (Quatremains) first attracted my attention
>more than fifty years ago, when I was collecting information about the
>Fowlers" 
>Therefore I would suggest that in 1936 Carter must have been at least sixty
>six ?

Good deduction.  And it turns out he was actually 80 at the time.

>>And indeed, according to the Oxford U. Library catalog, that's our author.
>>That catalog says the spelling of the title is:
>> The Quatremains of Oxfordshire
>>The Bodleian has two copies and Magdalen College has two copies.
>>
>I didn't know this, but for potential visitors to Oxford it is important
>that they know a copy is in the Oxford County Library, Westgate, Oxford, as
>the Bodleian Library and Magdalen College  will be viewing by appointment
>only. 

Indeed.  That's the same reason I looked at the copy in the county library.

I've added this information to
 http://www.quarterman.org/q/basic.html

>>>John is it you who maintains the web page?
>>
>>Yes.
>>
>>> I could scan in some and send it to you as an attachment? What do you
>>think?
>>
>>Er, typing it in would be even better.
>>
>Is there not some way I can scan copy and paste the information on to the
>page as this will save time?

Yes.  Perhaps then someone else will volunteer to type it in from that
web page.

>>> Carter also translates the Latin
>>>around the tombs in Thame and I previously promised I would let you have
>>>this info so I will look that up too.
>>
>>Good idea.
>>
>I looked it up last night and Carters interpretation is as follows:

I think these are the brasses shown in Clay's pictures in
 http://www.quarterman.org/q/clay/

>" O certeyn deth that now hast overthrow
>Richard Quatremayns Squyer and Sibil his wife that lie here now full (low)
>That with rial Princes of Counsel was true and wise famed
>To Richard Duke of York and aftur with his sone Kyng Edward the iiiith named
>That foundid in the Churche of Thame a chauntrie vi pore men and a
>fraternytie
>In the worship of Seynt Cristfere to be relevid in perpetuyte
>(They)that of her almys for thr Soulis a paternoster and (ave) devoutly wul
>Say
>of holy fadurs is grauntid they perdon of dayes forty alwey.
>Wiche Richard and Sibil oute of this Worlde passid in the yere of oure Lord
>A MCCCCLX
>Uppon their Soules Ihu haue mercy. Amen"
>
>Carter notes that 'Her almys' means 'their alms' ie their charity'. 
>
>Further in St Marys Church guide it states that the other tomb stone (ie
>that of Thomas Quatermain died 1342 and his wife Katherine, their son Thomas
>died 1396 and his wife Joan was formerly known as the 'poor stone' because
>charitable gifts were placed on it before distribution.
>
>Carter refers to Dr Lee s  interpretation of the wording on this tomb as
>when carter found that most of the brass strip surrounding the tomb which
>contained had almost completely been torn away.
>
>Carter quotes 'Dr Lee from Cottonian MS. Cleoptra C iii, folio 3b '
>as follows:

Dr. Lee's book is also in the Oxford County Library.  Its title is:
 The History, Description, and Antiquities of the Prebendal Church of
 the Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame, In the County and Diocese of Oxford,
 etc.
by Rev. Frederick George Lee, D.D., F.S.A Vicar of All Saints, Lambeth, etc.
1883, Mitchell and Hughes
140 Harbour Street, W., London

Beware of the genealogical charts in Lee's book.  Lee made some big bloopers,
such as showing the same person as two different people with slightly different
surname spellings.  Carter's book has much better versions of the same
information; Carter worked with Lee on Lee's book and carried his work
farther later in his own book.

>'Hic jacent Thomas Quatremayn de Notrh Westene (et) Kath'r'na uxor eius quee
>fuit filia Roberti d'ni de Grey Rotherfeld' qui obierunt vi die Junii Anno
>d'ni millesimo cccxlij. Similiterque hic jacent Thomas filius precicti Thome
>Quatremayn et Johanna uxor eius qui quidem Thomas obiit vi die Maii
>Millesimo ccclxxxxvi quorum animabus p'picietur Deus. Amen.'
>
>Carter notes that of the small part remaining that the word 'Militis' exists
>after 'Grey Rithirfeld.


>>>The other problem is that as the book was written so long ago it is no
>>>longer in print by Oxford University Press. so one cannot buy a copy.
>>
>>And it's even impossible to find on the rare book market; I've had inquiries
>>in at various places for more than 20 years now.
>>
>>I have another suggestion as well.  How about if we talk to Oxford U. Press
>>about doing a reprint?  Either through them, or with their cooperation but
>>through some other press?
>>
>I will ask OUP ..How many copies do you think we would need?

Well, let's take a poll.

OLIS says about it:
xiv, 146 p. : illus., plates, facsim., 4 col. coats of arms (incl. front.) ;
24 cm

So it's about 160 pages total.

Assume a facsimile copy would cost around $30 each.

Who on this list would buy a copy?

>>>The first recorded Quarterman (or spelling variation thereof) was Guilliame
>>>Quartremayne in Oxford in 1116.  Remember that William the Conqueror, King
>>>William I of England came from Normandy in France in 1066 (Battle of
>>>Hastings)
>>
>>Yes, but the Quatremaines did not come with William the Conqueror.
>>My Aunt Jane has tried following that thread, and there are no
>>Quatremaines under any obvious spelling in any of the lists
>>associated with the Battle of Hastings or any events near that time.
>>As you say, the first Quarterman turns up more than a generation later.
>>
>>This of course doesn't completely preclude our ancestors having come
>>over with William; surnames were not common at that time, and they
>>might not have yet adopted the surname.
>>
>>However, many more Normans came to England from Normandy in the
>>times of Henry I (1100-1135) and Henry II (1154-1189).  The Quatremains
>>could have been among them.
>>
>Yes indeed but because of this link it is extremely likely that the first
>Quarterman ancestor to live in England did come from Normandy and defiantly
>in the period commencing with the date 1066.

Probably not before, indeed.

>I Haven't had chance to research the battle of Hastings I have only been
>researching this for about two years and when you work full time it is not
>easy. 

Yep, I work full time, too. :-)

>But one observation I would make which noone seems to have noted is that the
>old fashioned way of writing a 'Q'when combined with a 'U' in script looks
>very much like a 'W'. 

Sure, that's one of the variations sometimes found on the name.

>>> The Norman's were brilliant as the majority could read and write
>>>and they liked to list and record information. Hence the Doomsday Book.
>>
>>Indeed.  Unfortunately, there are no Quatremaines in the Domesday Book,
>>either.
>>
>We defiantly need to find out more about the first recorded Quarterman.

I'm all for it.

>>> In
>>>modern French 'Quatre' means 'four' and 'main' means 'hand'. I understand
>>>that the Norman's at that time wore chain mail (armour in the form of small
>>>metal links or chains to protect from swords in battle). Carter refers to
>>>the Quarterman name as meaning 'four hands' or 'mail fisted'. I therefore
>>>understand that the four hands means two actual hands and two gloves of
>>>chain mail over them, this probably refers to the fact that Guilliames'
>>>father or relatives etc were well recognised for their heroic in battle
>>
>>That's one possibility.
>>
>>>Quarterman is not the American version of Quartre mayne but the Saxon
>>>interpretation (the Saxons lived in England before the Norman's arrived in
>>>1066.) 
>>
>>Interesting.  Was the Quarterman spelling ever actually used by people
>>of that family in England?
>>
>Yes but my family are Quarterman s and we have never moved to the US and
>according to the Oxford telephone directory the majority of Quarterman s
>living in the Oxford area today use this spelling although there are quite a
>few Quartermain s. 

There's an obvious check that I never thought to make.
Very interesting.

>Although I would note that my great grandfathers W.W.I medals have
>Quartermain written on them!

Maybe the medal recorder spelled it however?

>I have copied extracts of church records from circa 16/17c which was
>presumably when a certain Quarterman family first took that boat to America.
>I will check when I get home tonight as to the spelling.

Sounds good.

Our ancestor Robert Quarterman (not Rev. Robert, rather his ancestor)
first appears in South Carolina in 1695.  If he was 21 at the time
(which he would have had to have been to own land), he would have been
born about 1674.  He could have been older.  He died in 1710.

>>>The most famous quartermans discussed by Carter are those buried in St Mary
>>>Church in Thame and who built Rycote Chapel (English Heritage) These
>>>hob-nobbed with nobility
>>
>>Yes, this is the Richard Quatremayne b. 1393 d. 1478 who was a member
>>of Parliament for a long time.  He's the same one who was reputed by
>>some of his distant relatives to have been the Duke of Gloster even
>>though, as we heard on this list a while back, he couldn't have been.
>>
>>> One was the fourth physician(doctor) to King Edward
>>>of England and he was also a member of parliament.
>>
>>Um, I think you mean physician to Charles II, at least if you're referring
>>to Dr. William Quatremain b. 1618 d. 1622 who was a patron of Magdalene
>>College.
>>Or maybe you're thinking of a different one.
>>
>As you probably guessed I was being vague as I couldn't quite remember. but
>I will refer to my notes and get back to you.

OK.

>>> These quartermans are
>>>likely to have had the same ancestors as all Quartermans'living today but
>>>there are no direct decedents as the first born hereditary line finished
>>>without an heir.
>>
>>Although even that line also has living descendants through the
>>Littletons (some of them currently residing in Australia) and the
>>Fowlers.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Carter were one of them,
>>given his middle name.
>>
>Mr Carter was interested in the Quarterman family as it was his wife's
>maiden name.

Interesting. The things you can find when you actually ahve a copy of
Carter's book to refer to.

>Sir Richard Fowler was the  heir and nephew of Richard Quarterman who is
>buried in Thame Church

>Carter notes that for two or three generations in 15 c the Fowlers were
>connected with the Quatremains family by intermarriage and decent.

Yep.

>>And some of the more prominent Massachusetts ancestors of the Midway group
>>were Fowlers.  There is a gap of more than 100 years between them and
>>the only Quatremayne Fowlers that I know of, so I can only speculate that
>>they might be related.
>>
>John do you know which of your Quarterman ancestors were born in England
>(where) and moved to America (when)?

See above.  Beyond that little bit, we don't know much about the antecedents
of our immigrant ancestor Robert Quarterman.  We have never found any proof
of what ship or port he came on, or even that he came from England.
We don't even know his wife's name.  We do have reason to believe that
his children were:

 Robert QUARTERMAN, d. 1739, South Carolina.
 Richard QUARTERMAN, d. 1740, South Carolina.
 Ann QUARTERMAN, b. South Carolina.
 Thomas QUARTERMAN, b. South Carolina.
 John QUARTERMAN Sr., b. South Carolina.
 Mary QUARTERMAN, b. 1711, South Carolina.

If we're right about them, there's a good chance his wife was named Ann.

We do know he was a Congregationalist, i.e., a dissenter.
And he chose to move to a place in South Carolina where
a group of Congregationalists from Massachusetts was just
arriving.  Considering how Puritans tended to write to
each other, even across the Atlantic, he quite likely knew
about them, and may have even been related to them.

This is all, of course, assuming he wasn't a descendant of
Quartermans already in America.  There were at least two earlier
in Maryland, who seem to vanish.

John
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