Re: The Quatremains of Oxfordshire

["John S. Quarterman" <jsq@matrix.net>]

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>@There are English Quatremaines on this list, and perhaps some of them
>will add more to this discussion.@
>
>Yes me ! - Victoria

Hi Victoria,

>I don't know any thing about the American history but I have read Carter's
>'The Quartremaynes of Oxfordshire'. There is only one green worn reference
>book in the county library in Oxford, England.

Doubtless the very same copy I looked at a few years ago in that same place.

> I have a copy of part but
>copyright laws mean that one can only legally copy one chapter or 5% of the
>original.

Is this really true?  The book was published in 1936.  Is the copyright
on it still in force after 64 years?

>  I could scan in 5% and maybe we could put it on to the web page?
>The alternative is to try and get permission from the Author if he is alive
>to put it all  on the web page?

Mr. Carter was apparently not a young man when he wrote the book.
If he was as young as 30, he would be 94 years old now.  Many of
us on this list know at least one relative who is that old, so
it is conceivable that he is still alive.  However, I suspect he
was quite a bit older than 30 when he wrote the book.

The only William F. Carter listed in the U.S. Library of Congress
as writing books about English history is a William Fowler Carter
born in 1856.  If that's him, he would be 144 years old now.

And indeed, according to the Oxford U. Library catalog, that's our author.
That catalog says the spelling of the title is:
 The Quatremains of Oxfordshire
The Bodleian has two copies and Magdalen College has two copies.

>John is it you who maintains the web page?

Yes.

> I could scan in some and send it to you as an attachment? What do you think?

Er, typing it in would be even better.

> Carter also translates the Latin
>around the tombs in Thame and I previously promised I would let you have
>this info so I will look that up too.

Good idea.

>The other problem is that as the book was written so long ago it is no
>longer in print by Oxford University Press. so one cannot buy a copy.

And it's even impossible to find on the rare book market; I've had inquiries
in at various places for more than 20 years now.

I have another suggestion as well.  How about if we talk to Oxford U. Press
about doing a reprint?  Either through them, or with their cooperation but
through some other press?

>The first recorded Quarterman (or spelling variation thereof) was Guilliame
>Quartremayne in Oxford in 1116.  Remember that William the Conqueror, King
>William I of England came from Normandy in France in 1066 (Battle of
>Hastings)

Yes, but the Quatremaines did not come with William the Conqueror.
My Aunt Jane has tried following that thread, and there are no
Quatremaines under any obvious spelling in any of the lists
associated with the Battle of Hastings or any events near that time.
As you say, the first Quarterman turns up more than a generation later.

This of course doesn't completely preclude our ancestors having come
over with William; surnames were not common at that time, and they
might not have yet adopted the surname.

However, many more Normans came to England from Normandy in the
times of Henry I (1100-1135) and Henry II (1154-1189).  The Quatremains
could have been among them.

> The Norman's were brilliant as the majority could read and write
>and they liked to list and record information. Hence the Doomsday Book.

Indeed.  Unfortunately, there are no Quatremaines in the Domesday Book, either.

> In
>modern French 'Quatre' means 'four' and 'main' means 'hand'. I understand
>that the Norman's at that time wore chain mail (armour in the form of small
>metal links or chains to protect from swords in battle). Carter refers to
>the Quarterman name as meaning 'four hands' or 'mail fisted'. I therefore
>understand that the four hands means two actual hands and two gloves of
>chain mail over them, this probably refers to the fact that Guilliames'
>father or relatives etc were well recognised for their heroic in battle

That's one possibility.

>Quarterman is not the American version of Quartre mayne but the Saxon
>interpretation (the Saxons lived in England before the Norman's arrived in
>1066.) 

Interesting.  Was the Quarterman spelling ever actually used by people
of that family in England?

>The most famous quartermans discussed by Carter are those buried in St Mary
>Church in Thame and who built Rycote Chapel (English Heritage) These
>hob-nobbed with nobility

Yes, this is the Richard Quatremayne b. 1393 d. 1478 who was a member
of Parliament for a long time.  He's the same one who was reputed by
some of his distant relatives to have been the Duke of Gloster even
though, as we heard on this list a while back, he couldn't have been.

> One was the fourth physician(doctor) to King Edward
>of England and he was also a member of parliament.

Um, I think you mean physician to Charles II, at least if you're referring to
Dr. William Quatremain b. 1618 d. 1622 who was a patron of Magdalene College.
Or maybe you're thinking of a different one.

> These quartermans are
>likely to have had the same ancestors as all Quartermans'living today but
>there are no direct decedents as the first born hereditary line finished
>without an heir.

Although even that line also has living descendants through the
Littletons (some of them currently residing in Australia) and the
Fowlers.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Carter were one of them,
given his middle name.

And some of the more prominent Massachusetts ancestors of the Midway group
were Fowlers.  There is a gap of more than 100 years between them and
the only Quatremayne Fowlers that I know of, so I can only speculate that
they might be related.

John
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